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Discuss. . .
I remember way back couple weeks ago there was someone claim to be a GM opened a topic regarding Ninja tanking and said something exactly like this. "Decrease hate when the shadow is absorded." Back then i aggreed with him. Looks like his idea reach to the developer team.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 09:00:40 2005 by Moooooo
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Also can we almost see the day all mages sub ninja? *Deadly monster hits XXXXX, XXXXX's shadow absored the attack with one shadow* (hate decreased) *Deadly monsters goes to hit someone else*
34 posts
Well...all i have to say is "Wow..."
I think they took a lot of peoples opinions from the forums from KI and this site...All ive been seeing is posts about gimping RNG. My friends aint gonna be to happy >_>;
As far as the ninja being nerfed with utsusemi shadows being used you lose hate....!?!?!?!? wth? That came from no where...
No idea how this will work...Guess we will find out soon enough.
I think they took a lot of peoples opinions from the forums from KI and this site...All ive been seeing is posts about gimping RNG. My friends aint gonna be to happy >_>;
As far as the ninja being nerfed with utsusemi shadows being used you lose hate....!?!?!?!? wth? That came from no where...
No idea how this will work...Guess we will find out soon enough.
Acturely it makes perfect sense that a shadow *Dies*, The monster will think the foe he is attacking is dead. So decreasing hate after a shadow *Died* for you makes perfect sense IMO. Besides, PLD need some love.
Also the ninja idea wasn't come from no where, I am 100% sure there was a topic created by someone with a very long explaination about how is ninja tank almost took over PLD's job, and poor PLDs has no other use beside tanking. So he comes up with this interesting idea about Ninja should be consider a elementalist/support unit for debuff and elemental dammage. And losing enmity from losing shadow was originally come from that guy (well forgot his screen name). I did read his whole idea (was very long post) and can't aggree more. Also the guy who posted that idea claimed to be a GM in FFXI. . .
Edited, Thu Jun 30 09:44:39 2005 by Moooooo
Also the ninja idea wasn't come from no where, I am 100% sure there was a topic created by someone with a very long explaination about how is ninja tank almost took over PLD's job, and poor PLDs has no other use beside tanking. So he comes up with this interesting idea about Ninja should be consider a elementalist/support unit for debuff and elemental dammage. And losing enmity from losing shadow was originally come from that guy (well forgot his screen name). I did read his whole idea (was very long post) and can't aggree more. Also the guy who posted that idea claimed to be a GM in FFXI. . .
Edited, Thu Jun 30 09:44:39 2005 by Moooooo
34 posts
Always liked PLDs...They get plenty of love from me when i make parties =P
But the best tank ive ever partied with, would have to be Chato...[Impossible to guage!] [Ninja]
I dunno...If SE ruins Ranged Attack and Utsusemi, wouldnt NIN basically become useless? NIN = Throwining DDer or a tank.
Throwing falls under the category of Ranged Attack so that hurts NIN too...And Shurikens are EXPENSIVE.
But the best tank ive ever partied with, would have to be Chato...[Impossible to guage!] [Ninja]
I dunno...If SE ruins Ranged Attack and Utsusemi, wouldnt NIN basically become useless? NIN = Throwining DDer or a tank.
Throwing falls under the category of Ranged Attack so that hurts NIN too...And Shurikens are EXPENSIVE.
Wow. ::sigh:: Either this makes NIN tanks completely useless or it makes THF even more vital to NIN tanking parties.
Fu[b][/b]cking SE.
Fu[b][/b]cking SE.
That doesn't appear to be really "gimping" rangers, so it takes an extra few seconds to find the optimal distance between yourself and the monster, not really a big deal, the only major problem I suppose would be on AoE mobs if you needed to be up close... as far as the damage thing does so that eliminates xp'ing on monsters 4 lvls ahead of where you would normally xp if you have enough rangers in pt, not much of a big deal.
And for ninja shadows, I agree with the guy who wrote about "shadows dying" I guess this just means all those ninjas who start using only shihei post lvl 60 will have to buy more tools to keep hate. They'll also need to sub in +enmity gear for provoke, so hardly gimped unless they take away our /equip macros too.
Sounds like they're just going to make playing these jobs a bit more of a challenge. Meaning bad ninja tanks are about to get even worse.
And for ninja shadows, I agree with the guy who wrote about "shadows dying" I guess this just means all those ninjas who start using only shihei post lvl 60 will have to buy more tools to keep hate. They'll also need to sub in +enmity gear for provoke, so hardly gimped unless they take away our /equip macros too.
Sounds like they're just going to make playing these jobs a bit more of a challenge. Meaning bad ninja tanks are about to get even worse.
Ninja isn't just about blink and throwing. Do you know they can make almost the same role like RDM for debuff? A well equited ninja can debuff any HNM and that's including CoP dragons. They can debuff, deal elemental dammage with ninjasu and throwing. Bad thing is all of those are expensive. You can almost see ninja can be a job like a red mage except they can't refresh, heal and some debuff that's exclusively to red mage, such as Gravity and Dispel.
It will greatly effect ranger regarding the poster above. Let's say if close range will nerf and become so much less dammage or less accuracy. What will rangers stand their position when fighting standing battles such as Fafnir? You can't stand far and shoot because if you pull the hate, you also pulling a risk of getting your whole alliance killed. And what about monster that use kite tactic? With ranger's slow attack speed except when their occassional quick shot ability kicks in. You can't tell when will the monster get into the best range for the most dammage. Yeah i also aggree this won't make ranger that much bad for a good ranger player. But it will make it more difficult for those countless rangers out there picked ranger job because ranger can be the best DD even play by a man with half a monkey brain as long as they have the gil for ammo.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:04:02 2005 by Moooooo
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:07:04 2005 by Moooooo
It will greatly effect ranger regarding the poster above. Let's say if close range will nerf and become so much less dammage or less accuracy. What will rangers stand their position when fighting standing battles such as Fafnir? You can't stand far and shoot because if you pull the hate, you also pulling a risk of getting your whole alliance killed. And what about monster that use kite tactic? With ranger's slow attack speed except when their occassional quick shot ability kicks in. You can't tell when will the monster get into the best range for the most dammage. Yeah i also aggree this won't make ranger that much bad for a good ranger player. But it will make it more difficult for those countless rangers out there picked ranger job because ranger can be the best DD even play by a man with half a monkey brain as long as they have the gil for ammo.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:04:02 2005 by Moooooo
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:07:04 2005 by Moooooo
34 posts
Yea this wont effect rangers in exp parties but it will definently effect them on Kited HNMs such as Kirin... Imagine trying to pull off a slug shot at the perfect location (to your eyes) and then finding out your too far and you lose all 300% TP...its like when your a BLM doing a BCNM...you keep spamming spells until you know ur in range at the farthest distance...RNG get one chance at getting the right distance. I dont think RNG should be to upset with this update. It just seperates the n00b RNGs from the pro RNGs, same with NIN i think...
I am well aware of what a ninja can do, and a ninja is not a rdm by any means. The use of slow/paralyze/blind ninjitsu is great hate control (sort of like a paladin's magic), using a ninja for a tank also greatly reduces the need for a rdm in the party, so is the use of the other elemental magic they have. My point was ninjas will have to do more to keep hate than using shihei, something GOOD ninjas have done anyway. Now, I understand when performing certain skillchains, ninjas need to balance hate so the monster turns, but thats besides the point. And yes its not cheap, is leveling a job supposed to be cheap? If you can't afford to do a decent job while leveling, go farm, then your xp will only be better when you are in a party. And yes when I was leveling ninja i used slow/paralyze/blind ninjitsu on every mob so I am well aware of the cost.
34 posts
haha i feel ya Darth, about NIN being expensive.
I took NIN to 57 and found out i couldnt afford it unless i sold a lot of my DRG and SMN gear. NIN will be a very hard job to lvl to 75. It will not only take time but will take lots of patience and maybe the loss of millions of gil. When I lvled NIN every now and then id get into pts where i was using at least 10 shehei a battle and LOTS of enfeebles and elemental tools...To me this update will make NIN REALLY expensive, it will take lots of skill to lvl NIN to 75 now.
I took NIN to 57 and found out i couldnt afford it unless i sold a lot of my DRG and SMN gear. NIN will be a very hard job to lvl to 75. It will not only take time but will take lots of patience and maybe the loss of millions of gil. When I lvled NIN every now and then id get into pts where i was using at least 10 shehei a battle and LOTS of enfeebles and elemental tools...To me this update will make NIN REALLY expensive, it will take lots of skill to lvl NIN to 75 now.
That's what the poster who had this idea said in his post. People all got this crazy idea about "Ninja is a tank, ninja is a tank" ever since the release of ninja. "A blind/slow/paralyze spell is just for ninja to hold hate, those spell has no value on themself beside they can give me alot hate from it." is wrong. The idea of "Ninja tanks everything and monsters are stupid fools who chasing shadows after shadows mindlessly" is wrong. SE never thought of Ninja is for tanking when they release it, Players figured it out themself.
History of ninja: Ninjas were secret agents who works for the warlords in anccient Japan for assassination and spying. They attack their foes from the shadow and disapear at night quickly after accomplish their mission.
History of ninja: Ninjas were secret agents who works for the warlords in anccient Japan for assassination and spying. They attack their foes from the shadow and disapear at night quickly after accomplish their mission.
34 posts
Definition sounds like a tank to me, just a stealthy tank that does hit and runs(runs = Shadows o.O) Besides, i still dont think SE intended to have 2 capable tanking jobs aka PLD and WAR/NIN...
haha DRG/NIN the most LEAST hate given job in the game now!
Super Jump, High Jump, Wyvern, Utsusemi: Ichi & Ni.
No monster will attack meh! My wyvern will tank for me lol (that can be a bad thing -_-)
haha DRG/NIN the most LEAST hate given job in the game now!
Super Jump, High Jump, Wyvern, Utsusemi: Ichi & Ni.
No monster will attack meh! My wyvern will tank for me lol (that can be a bad thing -_-)
I do believe that SE didn't initially intend Ninjas to be main tanks, however lately they have been gearing them up for it, after seeing how well they do it. The decreased emnity probably won't be as bad as its being made to seem, however its creation seems more geared to help /NIN DDs.
Kinda like a Ranger good and bad update all at once, heh....
peace,
CR
Kinda like a Ranger good and bad update all at once, heh....
peace,
CR
34 posts
....We forgot how this will effect SAM/RNG.
If the sweetspot for a ranged attack is further back hth can a SAM use a ranged attack in mid battle?
I know you can just pull back and shoot but that takes up valuable GK dmg time....SAM stay up close to the mob so there GK hits...
Though ive seen some decked out SAM/RNG not even bother with there GK and just full out range attack the mob.
If the sweetspot for a ranged attack is further back hth can a SAM use a ranged attack in mid battle?
I know you can just pull back and shoot but that takes up valuable GK dmg time....SAM stay up close to the mob so there GK hits...
Though ive seen some decked out SAM/RNG not even bother with there GK and just full out range attack the mob.
I think Ninja can still be a tank for exp PT after this update if the PT's dammage can kill monster quickly.
But on the other hand. Ninja main tank for HNM will be different story. Ninja lose hate from shadow = losing hate in a steady rate because they can only rely on shadow to servive = others dammage dealer will have to control and lower their dammage deal to the monster.
Deal lesser dammage against high regeneration rate HNM = it will never die.
I also aggree with you on the Sam/Rng. They already don't really get that much of sweet range accuracy rate on anything from ranger attack. After this update it's going to be worse.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:47:55 2005 by Moooooo
But on the other hand. Ninja main tank for HNM will be different story. Ninja lose hate from shadow = losing hate in a steady rate because they can only rely on shadow to servive = others dammage dealer will have to control and lower their dammage deal to the monster.
Deal lesser dammage against high regeneration rate HNM = it will never die.
I also aggree with you on the Sam/Rng. They already don't really get that much of sweet range accuracy rate on anything from ranger attack. After this update it's going to be worse.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 10:47:55 2005 by Moooooo
34 posts
For all you DRGs out there, i was reading in the DRG discussion forum...something i didnt pick up when i first read update. Someone mentioned DRG being the most wanted job for NIN parties. Your probably asking yourself, WTF would anyone want a DRG? Haha...funny you should (might) ask. Who deals the most damage and never gets hate? We do... =P NIN DRG THF WHM RDM BLM party...DRK will steal hate easily, RNG DRK and SAM steal hate way to easy. Finally, another use for super jump.
<3 THF <3 NIN
<3 THF <3 NIN
guy i think the RNG nerf is to keep them at rng and eliminate the melee aspect of the chracter. But thats jst my opinion.
Ranger melee dmg is pathetic. I have yet to see a rng break 100 with axe weapon skill. lol
The utsememi thing is just stupid! Excatly what Moooo said, "NIN casts Utesmemi, Mob hits the NIN and asborbs the NINs shadows. NIN loses hate. Mob goes over to WHM (or healer) gives aggro and dies"
The RNG thing... is good... But I only think that in ballista :P That way my friend can't also shoot me :P otherwise, this is gonna be so stupid... Damn SE...
The RNG thing... is good... But I only think that in ballista :P That way my friend can't also shoot me :P otherwise, this is gonna be so stupid... Damn SE...
NIN losing hate from lost shadows is no different than a PLD or WAR getting the hate beaten off of him really. And after Ni is acquired, a good NIN may never get hit, and thusly the hate is never beaten off the tank. The only way the NIN would lose hate in that situation is if another job simply accrued more enmity than the NIN has already built.
Although I like that kind of setup as much as anyone, SE are probably doing this because in the hands of a skilled player, NIN, while efficient, was broken. That's the only explanation I can give for this change to the job. This will just mean NINs won't be able to half *** their way through the job anymore. It was already mentioned, but now NIN tanks will have no choice but to spam Ninjustsu and chuck shurikens like there's no tomorrow if they intend to keep that hate without a good THF. Maybe even with one. The major downside is now the casual player won't be able to do this job as effectively lots of +enmity gear.
If they're doing this change to promote more DD Ninja, I don't know how well that'd be accepted by the populace of Vana'diel if they don't increase the NIN's damage potential. Not enough NINs use Shurikens to show how powerful they can be, and more people would probably prefer a RDM over a NIN enfeebler, since RDMs are primarily picked for their Refreshing abilities, the fact that RDM can enfeeble is just a happy coincidence. Not to mention Dispel. If there are no RDMs, I don't think most parties will say "OK we'll get a NIN and set out." I don't think I've ever heard a party say "OK we need an enfeebler," only "OK we need a RDM" and that's simply due to Refresh and Dispel. So I don't know what to make of this idea.
I don't know what's up with the RNG thing. They mentioned it depends on the bow? Well, thinking of FFT, maybe you have to be far away for Longbows, close range for Crossbows, and Shortbows are probably the same as Crossbows. I don't know about Guns but they had a huge range in FFT. They'll probably be the same distance as Longbows.
I don't play either of these jobs so I'm obviously not feeling the same impact as other people. But I'd say don't go getting too upset yet, not until we see just how they'll be implemented. SE is the master of vagueness.
Although I like that kind of setup as much as anyone, SE are probably doing this because in the hands of a skilled player, NIN, while efficient, was broken. That's the only explanation I can give for this change to the job. This will just mean NINs won't be able to half *** their way through the job anymore. It was already mentioned, but now NIN tanks will have no choice but to spam Ninjustsu and chuck shurikens like there's no tomorrow if they intend to keep that hate without a good THF. Maybe even with one. The major downside is now the casual player won't be able to do this job as effectively lots of +enmity gear.
If they're doing this change to promote more DD Ninja, I don't know how well that'd be accepted by the populace of Vana'diel if they don't increase the NIN's damage potential. Not enough NINs use Shurikens to show how powerful they can be, and more people would probably prefer a RDM over a NIN enfeebler, since RDMs are primarily picked for their Refreshing abilities, the fact that RDM can enfeeble is just a happy coincidence. Not to mention Dispel. If there are no RDMs, I don't think most parties will say "OK we'll get a NIN and set out." I don't think I've ever heard a party say "OK we need an enfeebler," only "OK we need a RDM" and that's simply due to Refresh and Dispel. So I don't know what to make of this idea.
I don't know what's up with the RNG thing. They mentioned it depends on the bow? Well, thinking of FFT, maybe you have to be far away for Longbows, close range for Crossbows, and Shortbows are probably the same as Crossbows. I don't know about Guns but they had a huge range in FFT. They'll probably be the same distance as Longbows.
I don't play either of these jobs so I'm obviously not feeling the same impact as other people. But I'd say don't go getting too upset yet, not until we see just how they'll be implemented. SE is the master of vagueness.
29 posts
omg i was having the worst day until i found out about this. thank you SE. maybe now other DD and PLD will *FINALLY* get some respect and playtime.
Well I'll just toss in the same crap I always hear when someone cries about something getting nerfed "the game is more balanced now". LOL.
im 75 nin and 66 rng so i feel kinda like SE just gang banged me with no KY jelly.
not really tbh i dont think the nerf is that bad. probably like the last time they "nerf" utsusemi and all the pld were going wild but then when the so called nerf took effect it was bearly a change.
if this is anything like the last time they changed utsusemi, it will affect /nin more than nin which will be a good thing for rangers. now you can pull hate but lose enmity through shadows where as before you had too take an *** whiping before you lost any hate.
im really more concerned aobut the ranged attack thing affecting my ranger than i am utsusemi affecting my ninja. then again this may be a good thing for ranger, you may have more of a liberty on which you chose to do. lets say your ranger has a ton of ranged accuracy, maybe standing farther from the mob will make you do more dmg but less accurate, but if you have enough ranged acc maybe it would make up for it. or lets say your rng is loaded up on str, maybe standing right on the mob will allow you to hit it more often but for a little less than if you were standing farther back.
only time will tell.
not really tbh i dont think the nerf is that bad. probably like the last time they "nerf" utsusemi and all the pld were going wild but then when the so called nerf took effect it was bearly a change.
if this is anything like the last time they changed utsusemi, it will affect /nin more than nin which will be a good thing for rangers. now you can pull hate but lose enmity through shadows where as before you had too take an *** whiping before you lost any hate.
im really more concerned aobut the ranged attack thing affecting my ranger than i am utsusemi affecting my ninja. then again this may be a good thing for ranger, you may have more of a liberty on which you chose to do. lets say your ranger has a ton of ranged accuracy, maybe standing farther from the mob will make you do more dmg but less accurate, but if you have enough ranged acc maybe it would make up for it. or lets say your rng is loaded up on str, maybe standing right on the mob will allow you to hit it more often but for a little less than if you were standing farther back.
only time will tell.
The multiple uses of the term "Ranger Nerf" amuses me.
First, we haven't even tested out what the effect of the variable range is yet! It just says variable damage and accuracy, at different ranges. For all you know it may increase the damage, at higher range (That's true IRL too), and remove some of the extra clog in close quarters, for the direct melees. I think it makes perfect sense that an arrow at point blank range is not going to do as much as one that's been given more airtime. More accurate, sure, but less damage.
Second, Ranger/Ninjas are actually going to get a major boost from this new Utsusemi change. Decreasing enmity from each absorbed shadow, makes it way easier to shed hate from that hate-snatching weapon skill you just slung.
As to how this will affect the blink tank, I'm not really sure. I agree with the above poster, that S/E never inteded for Ninja to be used like it is. Maybe this the first sign of changes to the job that make Ninja more of a viable and flexible party member, other than just tank.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 16:54:50 2005 by TheWanderingShadow
Edited, Thu Jun 30 18:29:02 2005 by TheWanderingShadow
First, we haven't even tested out what the effect of the variable range is yet! It just says variable damage and accuracy, at different ranges. For all you know it may increase the damage, at higher range (That's true IRL too), and remove some of the extra clog in close quarters, for the direct melees. I think it makes perfect sense that an arrow at point blank range is not going to do as much as one that's been given more airtime. More accurate, sure, but less damage.
Second, Ranger/Ninjas are actually going to get a major boost from this new Utsusemi change. Decreasing enmity from each absorbed shadow, makes it way easier to shed hate from that hate-snatching weapon skill you just slung.
As to how this will affect the blink tank, I'm not really sure. I agree with the above poster, that S/E never inteded for Ninja to be used like it is. Maybe this the first sign of changes to the job that make Ninja more of a viable and flexible party member, other than just tank.
Edited, Thu Jun 30 16:54:50 2005 by TheWanderingShadow
Edited, Thu Jun 30 18:29:02 2005 by TheWanderingShadow
Yeah that just occured to me, /NIN Rangers are seriously going to benefit from this, and considering the second half of the update pertained to Rangers...do you think maybe they designed this update for that very reason? To make the hate a RNG may draw slowly dissipate as the monster eats his shadows? And maybe the blink tanking problem was just an unfortunate byproduct?
Hmm...
Maybe not.
Hmm...
Maybe not.
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