In GW2, dungeon runs are supposed to be the more elite PvE areas we'll encounter. In GW, a dungeon run could take an hour and a half or more, plus time you spend running/fighting there. Once it's over you usually end up with either a cheap crafting material or an item that's only good for merching.
So for GW2, how long should a dungeon run take and what kind of rewards would you like seeing? I mean we could have really long dungeons with a small chance of a great reward so people would be wow when they see you with an item if you are lucky or rich enough to have one. But if that was done, it'd risk alienating the majority of the fanbase who don't have the time or inclination to do these elite areas and they won't be rich enough to afford the one item that drops 1% of the time from only one dungeon that takes 2-3 hours to finish.
I'd like to say a max length of 30 minutes for most dungeons (no that doesn't include speedclears) would be good, though about 1/4th of them should take up to an hour. These last 1/4 would be the hardest ones naturally. As for rewards, it's hard to say what those should be, but I think that in GW the rewards for most places weren't that great.
And this is just me, but as an aside I'd like to see more variation in spawns and whatnot than the static spawns in GW. Since there's a dynamic event system in place it'd be cool if what is in the dungeon changes every now and then. Maybe the "most difficult" dungeons would be a rare spawn that's only happening during a few days period, at which point a new dungeon gets inhabited by some really tough foes and better loot.
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Dungeon runs: length and rewardFollow
As much as I'd love the mostly non-linear style presented in the Fissure of Woe and Underworld to return I have a feeling that they will merely be relics of the past. Their design, quite frankly, was perfect. Large areas that could be tackled in any order, quest chains within the zones (and some that were standalone, can't think of a word), and every enemy could drop something valuable and exclusive to the zone meaning you were there to just beat up stuff. Sure there are the end chests now but it was a frequently inhabited zone for the entirety of the game's existence in defiance of an "end" reward.
Edited, Nov 18th 2010 6:52pm by Dartakc
Edited, Nov 18th 2010 6:52pm by Dartakc
For once, I'd like to see randomly generated dungeons. Something where you didn't know exactly what you were getting into and tactics had to change depending on room and corridor placement.
If they can do it in single player games, I have no idea why they don't implement it in MMOs.
If they can do it in single player games, I have no idea why they don't implement it in MMOs.
Scholar
24 posts
I think the best thing is to have a good spread of durations. 30 min dungeons are fine but for me the ideal duration is around 90 mins. That feels substantial without feeling drawn out. Likewise having things that are as long as UW and FoW are great too and I agree with Dartakc that their design is almost perfect. There's a variety of reasons to go into them besides clearing the areas out. I'm not a fan of the layout of the dungeon changing as its unrealistic and out of step with a game that's aiming for realism with events.
In terms of rewards, we've already seen weapon and armor sets per dungeon. I'd like to see crafting nodes or drops in dungeons as well as opportunities to gather karma.
In terms of rewards, we've already seen weapon and armor sets per dungeon. I'd like to see crafting nodes or drops in dungeons as well as opportunities to gather karma.
Scholar
20 posts
Perhaps we could have something like a split dungeon?
For example: The main body of the dungeon is huge, and takes about an hour to get through. Once you are through that, you reach an intermediate waypoint, a place you will then be able to map back to at any time. From that point you can enter the 'final stage' of the dungeon, which would be about 20 minutes of clearing and then a big boss fight.
This means you can choose to do half an hour, an hour, or an hour and a half. Loot would obviously have to be balanced so it didn't just benefit you to farm the boss. Perhaps there could be a chest awarded at the waypoint if you got there through clearing the first stage of the dungeon.
For example: The main body of the dungeon is huge, and takes about an hour to get through. Once you are through that, you reach an intermediate waypoint, a place you will then be able to map back to at any time. From that point you can enter the 'final stage' of the dungeon, which would be about 20 minutes of clearing and then a big boss fight.
This means you can choose to do half an hour, an hour, or an hour and a half. Loot would obviously have to be balanced so it didn't just benefit you to farm the boss. Perhaps there could be a chest awarded at the waypoint if you got there through clearing the first stage of the dungeon.
TashaDarke wrote:
I think the best thing is to have a good spread of durations. 30 min dungeons are fine but for me the ideal duration is around 90 mins. That feels substantial without feeling drawn out.
If you are a good team and get it done in 90 mins that's okay, but you're definitely pushing the upper time limit IMO. Now if it's 90 minutes for the average pug and 60-75 for experienced players, that would be more acceptable to more.
1 post
I'd like to see solo dungeons. But not those in story mode but in explorable mode. Add a cooldown to prevent grind, make it visially stunning with proper level design, add great non-tradeable cosmetic rewards (transmutation stones and town clothing Im looking at you). Balance between the professions can be done through personal single-use cons available only at the beginning of that dungeon. But thats only a dream...
Doesn't an hour for a dungeon run seem awfully *short*? It would feel like I just got started and was getting in the groove and bam, it's over.
Having been on runs in a variety of games, ranging from 20 minutes (speed clear) to 7+ hours depending on how optimal and coordinated your team was, I would rather see GW2 err on the side of MORE to do, than less. I'm all for halfway waypoints however, definitely. Sometimes you want to do it, but only have a few hours and can't finish in one go.
And I'd still like SOME variation in them, from run to run. No matter how awesome they start out, eventually it gets rote because there's only so often you can be impressed by seeing the same thing, with the mobs standing in the same place, doing exactly the same thing.
As for rewards, I have no idea. Unique and amazing sounds great on paper, but we've all been trapped by the Thing Of Awesome that only drops in one dungeon, by one boss, on every second Tuesday at 11pm and god forbid you can't get anybody to run it with you at that time. On the other hand, why run it if there's nothing to crow about at the end?
I'm all for dungeon runs rewarding POINTS instead of items, to be used for something else, like a PvP advantage for your team in WvW. Or what about giving an option of changing one for the other, sort of like a game show?
"You've just won this amazing armor sleeve of awesometude! But wait... you can trade it for what's behind ... Door Number 1!"
So you can do a run for immediate profit or for later profit, or for bragging rights. Kill Boss Dude 100 times and get a title over your head that reads "This Ain't No Lousy TShirt".
Having been on runs in a variety of games, ranging from 20 minutes (speed clear) to 7+ hours depending on how optimal and coordinated your team was, I would rather see GW2 err on the side of MORE to do, than less. I'm all for halfway waypoints however, definitely. Sometimes you want to do it, but only have a few hours and can't finish in one go.
And I'd still like SOME variation in them, from run to run. No matter how awesome they start out, eventually it gets rote because there's only so often you can be impressed by seeing the same thing, with the mobs standing in the same place, doing exactly the same thing.
As for rewards, I have no idea. Unique and amazing sounds great on paper, but we've all been trapped by the Thing Of Awesome that only drops in one dungeon, by one boss, on every second Tuesday at 11pm and god forbid you can't get anybody to run it with you at that time. On the other hand, why run it if there's nothing to crow about at the end?
I'm all for dungeon runs rewarding POINTS instead of items, to be used for something else, like a PvP advantage for your team in WvW. Or what about giving an option of changing one for the other, sort of like a game show?
"You've just won this amazing armor sleeve of awesometude! But wait... you can trade it for what's behind ... Door Number 1!"
So you can do a run for immediate profit or for later profit, or for bragging rights. Kill Boss Dude 100 times and get a title over your head that reads "This Ain't No Lousy TShirt".
2 posts
KingWinterclaw wrote:
In GW, a dungeon run could take an hour and a half or more, plus time you spend running/fighting there. Once it's over you usually end up with either a cheap crafting material or an item that's only good for merching.
but I think that in GW the rewards for most places weren't that great.
And this is just me, but as an aside I'd like to see more variation in spawns and whatnot than the static spawns in GW. Since there's a dynamic event system in place it'd be cool if what is in the dungeon changes every now and then. Maybe the "most difficult" dungeons would be a rare spawn that's only happening during a few days period, at which point a new dungeon gets inhabited by some really tough foes and better loot.
but I think that in GW the rewards for most places weren't that great.
And this is just me, but as an aside I'd like to see more variation in spawns and whatnot than the static spawns in GW. Since there's a dynamic event system in place it'd be cool if what is in the dungeon changes every now and then. Maybe the "most difficult" dungeons would be a rare spawn that's only happening during a few days period, at which point a new dungeon gets inhabited by some really tough foes and better loot.
To me, the first and second points were because of Guildwars original design model (the ancient one of it's "how you play, not how long you've played" Where the gear was capped, and fairly easy to get. In guildwars 2 gear will actually matter, and I'm sure upgrades will be both aesthetic and pragmatic.
Your last point really intrigues me, and is definitely something that could be really awesome if implemented. (though I think it should only really affect the first level of the dungeon or something.
Also if you haven't seen this link it might be helpful: http://www.arena.net/blog/john-and-eric-answer-your-items-and-loot-questions
I'd like to see a variety of lengths of dungeons available. One of the appeals to the casual player is that they can pop on for a short while and get something worthwhile done, while for the more serious gamer a long immersive dungeon provides a nice challenge. Having variety caters to all player types.
If you spend more than an hour in a dungeon, you should get some form of appropriate reward by/at the end. Points is an excellent idea, or tradable trophy items like in GW1. It pretty much guarantess that even if you did not get the big ticket item for the dungeon you at least get something meaningful and of real value to you, and even if you do get the big ticket item, you might want to go regrind that dungeon again just because its fun and you can gain credit to some points based item you are after.
Failing that (or as well as), you should be guaranteed something nice. Sure, the big ticket items should not be 100%, but if you don't get one of those the consollation item should be worth the time. An uncommon craft material, or cash, or some other tradable/sellable item.
I have no problem running a dungeon serveral times to get the big win item, as long as I'm getting something else for my effort too. Otherwise I'm just playing against the random number generator, and have better uses of my time :P
Variation in spawns, both position and type of enemy, would certainly make dungeons more interesting. Good idea :)
If you spend more than an hour in a dungeon, you should get some form of appropriate reward by/at the end. Points is an excellent idea, or tradable trophy items like in GW1. It pretty much guarantess that even if you did not get the big ticket item for the dungeon you at least get something meaningful and of real value to you, and even if you do get the big ticket item, you might want to go regrind that dungeon again just because its fun and you can gain credit to some points based item you are after.
Failing that (or as well as), you should be guaranteed something nice. Sure, the big ticket items should not be 100%, but if you don't get one of those the consollation item should be worth the time. An uncommon craft material, or cash, or some other tradable/sellable item.
I have no problem running a dungeon serveral times to get the big win item, as long as I'm getting something else for my effort too. Otherwise I'm just playing against the random number generator, and have better uses of my time :P
Variation in spawns, both position and type of enemy, would certainly make dungeons more interesting. Good idea :)
16 posts
pretty nice post running here, I have to agree with a mixture of length dungeons. If everything is really short, then everything will be easily acquired. A thing that makes an mmo's in my eyes so desirable is to have that power or special item no one else has, through hard work and luck. Shortened dungeons would gimp the content we have to play, meaning a fast decrement of a player base and ruining some of the reward you get in guild wars today.
I like the idea of a dynamic dungeons but it gets frustrating after a while as I thought with Diablo 2. It has its plus sides of putting people into guilds if the want to take on the high end content, as a random pug simply couldn't adapt to changes and it would be like taking on a new dungeon again, meaning no chance in my puging experiences across all games.
Dungeons are definitely the best content in an RPG. Challenge, reward and fun but it would be nice if they were a bit more evident where they are and easily accessible where I found on guild wars having to wiki everything in hope to find a dungeon.
I like the idea of a dynamic dungeons but it gets frustrating after a while as I thought with Diablo 2. It has its plus sides of putting people into guilds if the want to take on the high end content, as a random pug simply couldn't adapt to changes and it would be like taking on a new dungeon again, meaning no chance in my puging experiences across all games.
Dungeons are definitely the best content in an RPG. Challenge, reward and fun but it would be nice if they were a bit more evident where they are and easily accessible where I found on guild wars having to wiki everything in hope to find a dungeon.
Scholar
34 posts
Well, personally, I don't like going on runs that take more than 2 hours. Unless I have absolutely nothing to do that day, long runs are usually out of the question. There's nothing more frustrating than having to leave a 2.5 hour run because it ran a bit longer causing you to be late for a very important date.
The dungeons are split into diffrent paths depending on when you come back to play it. Once completeing the main story of the dugeon there are side stories were the dungeon leads you down new and different paths. So a short dungeon could be a long dungeon if you play all the different paths
11 posts
Based on what we know so far, the dungeons seem to offer some pretty great replay value with the diverging paths and multiple stories to follow up on. So I guess the time spent completing a dungeon can really vary quite a bit depending on what part of it you're actually doing. The optimal length of a dungeon, well... Personally, I think anywhere between 30 or 40 minutes for the shortest ones and maybe two and a half to three hours for the large ones seems pretty ideal.
As for rewards, I guess it's a nice setup with weapons for story mode and armor for explorable, but I'd really like to see some other, perhaps story-related rewards, too. Maybe something for your home district. Or titles. Or minipets.
As for rewards, I guess it's a nice setup with weapons for story mode and armor for explorable, but I'd really like to see some other, perhaps story-related rewards, too. Maybe something for your home district. Or titles. Or minipets.
14 posts
I would like to see dungeons designed to meet the desires of both short and longer play session and that's easy to do if the dungeons are designed in chapters/sections/wings whatever that take 30-60 mins or so on average to do.
If a group wants to have a long playing session then they can go through all the sections of the dungron all one after another.
Single serving content is what I'm saying. It's easier to string together 5 courses together to make a long fancy meal but it's impossible to cut down a big meal if all you want is a snack. (Sorry for that analogy, finished Thanksgiving dinner lol)
I would not want to see the dungeons designed so you're locked on a particular order for the chapter/section of the dungeon. That sort of thing would only be needed until you finish the initial story mode or first run through. After that groups should be able jump and do any of the chapter/sections they choose in any order.
If a group wants to have a long playing session then they can go through all the sections of the dungron all one after another.
Single serving content is what I'm saying. It's easier to string together 5 courses together to make a long fancy meal but it's impossible to cut down a big meal if all you want is a snack. (Sorry for that analogy, finished Thanksgiving dinner lol)
I would not want to see the dungeons designed so you're locked on a particular order for the chapter/section of the dungeon. That sort of thing would only be needed until you finish the initial story mode or first run through. After that groups should be able jump and do any of the chapter/sections they choose in any order.
2 posts
aside from all the 30-60-90 minute dungeons, i would really love on really massive dungeon that takes like 5-6 hours to clear. I remember when me and my friends played the original WoW, there was this huge 5-player dungeon (i believe it was in Blackrock or something like that?) that took that long to clear. Those were fun times.
Scholar
36 posts
As a casual player myself (though I'd like to think that I'll be a bit more of a hardcore player for Guild Wars 2) I can say that I'd like story dungeon runs to take me no longer then 30 to 45 minutes to complete, maybe a hole hour if it's one of the later dungeons. I don't want to spend 2+ hours in a dungeon, unless it's an endgame dungeon that's optional for me to play, something that I can get to on the weekends or whenever I have enough free time to get to it.
The thing people need to consider is that a good chunk of Guild Wars player base were either casual players, or ones that played other MMOs. Guild Wars has this type of unintentional flexibility that ArenaNet has already stated that they're going to use in Guild Wars 2. I expect to see some of the more challenging and strenuous content to come in during the endgame, with little snippets of it during the initial run through the story. That's just my opinion on the matter though, I'm fine with being wrong as I am curious to try out 2+ hour long dungeons... Maybe not something that'll take me five hours to complete... I can get distracted easily, so I wouldn't really enjoy it as well as I would.
Though... if it were Zelda-styled dungeons, with lots of puzzles an action to set the pace, I wouldn't mind spending a whole day in one! I mean, I know it's not going to happen, but I can dream can I? lol :p
Edited, Nov 27th 2010 9:07am by TriggerSad55
The thing people need to consider is that a good chunk of Guild Wars player base were either casual players, or ones that played other MMOs. Guild Wars has this type of unintentional flexibility that ArenaNet has already stated that they're going to use in Guild Wars 2. I expect to see some of the more challenging and strenuous content to come in during the endgame, with little snippets of it during the initial run through the story. That's just my opinion on the matter though, I'm fine with being wrong as I am curious to try out 2+ hour long dungeons... Maybe not something that'll take me five hours to complete... I can get distracted easily, so I wouldn't really enjoy it as well as I would.
Though... if it were Zelda-styled dungeons, with lots of puzzles an action to set the pace, I wouldn't mind spending a whole day in one! I mean, I know it's not going to happen, but I can dream can I? lol :p
Edited, Nov 27th 2010 9:07am by TriggerSad55
5 posts
Just don't make them too short!
Some of us played wow where before cataclysm it was standard to do a whole dungeon in 15minutes
You can't even say something in that time frame.
Over an hour would be too good, but I know many players don't have that much time!
so 30-40min are standard
and make some 90minutes dungeons with waypoints!
Some of us played wow where before cataclysm it was standard to do a whole dungeon in 15minutes
You can't even say something in that time frame.
Over an hour would be too good, but I know many players don't have that much time!
so 30-40min are standard
and make some 90minutes dungeons with waypoints!
7 posts
I'd like 30-60 minute dungeons, personally.
I'm quite confident that any dungeons bigger than that will be split into sections that can be completed independently, ala Sorrow's Furnace and Domain of Anguish.
Assuming the target audience remains the same as GW1 - maybe even slanting more casual-friendly than before! - I doubt the GW1 metrics really support any hardcore/old-school models.
Places like Tomb of Kings and the Factions dungeons only enjoyed popularity for the period immediately after release, and even then only amongst a fraction of the community; it's just not a good return on the resources required.
Of course they could stretch out a few special 'challenge' dungeons for that section of the playerbase - e.g. fill a room with wave after wave of foes, flood an alternate "evil demon dimension!" instance version of a map with monsters - but I cannot see Anet scripting multiple routes of non-linear dungeon dynamic events like they are for regular dungeons, at 5+ hours of storytelling per route.
I'm quite confident that any dungeons bigger than that will be split into sections that can be completed independently, ala Sorrow's Furnace and Domain of Anguish.
Assuming the target audience remains the same as GW1 - maybe even slanting more casual-friendly than before! - I doubt the GW1 metrics really support any hardcore/old-school models.
Places like Tomb of Kings and the Factions dungeons only enjoyed popularity for the period immediately after release, and even then only amongst a fraction of the community; it's just not a good return on the resources required.
Of course they could stretch out a few special 'challenge' dungeons for that section of the playerbase - e.g. fill a room with wave after wave of foes, flood an alternate "evil demon dimension!" instance version of a map with monsters - but I cannot see Anet scripting multiple routes of non-linear dungeon dynamic events like they are for regular dungeons, at 5+ hours of storytelling per route.
Scholar
32 posts
I like 45 to 90 minutes myself. 30 minutes just feels too short to me, though I understand that's beginning to be the norm these days (if not shorter).
I personally like the old school dungeons from WoW the most, such as Blackrock Depths and Maraudon - they clocked in between 2 and 4 hours depending on how much you did, but they really felt like you were on an adventure (at least the first few times you did them ^^).
Honestly I just can't think of a way to keep that sense of scope and scale, while still making it accessible to players who want to be in and out in 30 or 45 minutes, so they can go back to cooking or putting their kids to sleep. In the end you can only have one or the other...
As for rewards - I'm happy with what has been described so far, with tokens that can be turned in for gear. I'd also like there to be some rare and funny dungeon-themed items - for example trinkets, earrings, or other items that are less about stats and more about fun activated or proc-based effects: Examples would be the flaming piccolo in WoW that made nearby characters dance when you played it, or other WoW trinkets that let you breath fire or throw boomerangs, that sort of thing. Or maybe rare dungeon-themed appearance items, such as a Dredge hat, or a Beetletun party outfit.
Or perhaps we special dungeon-only items that we could carry around in our inventory, and later deploy into the world as environmental objects that could then be picked up, and would alter our skill bar with special dungeon-themed abilities.
Basically less emphasis on "I want XXX item so I can max out my Perception!", and more on "this hat has no stats, but man does it look awesome/funny and you can pull a flask of whiskey out of it every hour!"
I personally like the old school dungeons from WoW the most, such as Blackrock Depths and Maraudon - they clocked in between 2 and 4 hours depending on how much you did, but they really felt like you were on an adventure (at least the first few times you did them ^^).
Honestly I just can't think of a way to keep that sense of scope and scale, while still making it accessible to players who want to be in and out in 30 or 45 minutes, so they can go back to cooking or putting their kids to sleep. In the end you can only have one or the other...
As for rewards - I'm happy with what has been described so far, with tokens that can be turned in for gear. I'd also like there to be some rare and funny dungeon-themed items - for example trinkets, earrings, or other items that are less about stats and more about fun activated or proc-based effects: Examples would be the flaming piccolo in WoW that made nearby characters dance when you played it, or other WoW trinkets that let you breath fire or throw boomerangs, that sort of thing. Or maybe rare dungeon-themed appearance items, such as a Dredge hat, or a Beetletun party outfit.
Or perhaps we special dungeon-only items that we could carry around in our inventory, and later deploy into the world as environmental objects that could then be picked up, and would alter our skill bar with special dungeon-themed abilities.
Basically less emphasis on "I want XXX item so I can max out my Perception!", and more on "this hat has no stats, but man does it look awesome/funny and you can pull a flask of whiskey out of it every hour!"
Quote:
and you can pull a flask of whiskey out of it every hour!"
muah! i want me one of those, for sure.
I'm all for anything - dungeons, drops in dungeons, drops outside of dungeons, drops beside dungeons, dungeons that aren't REALLY dungeons, because you know they only take a half hour and that doesn't count, noob - in a game world that offers options. Whether that's being offered the choice of items when the quest has been complete, or being able to trade in that stupid thing you don't want for the whiskey hat that you do, it's all good. That's the idea behind being able to dye your armor, for gosh sake. So you don't to live with that chestpiece in its raw, naked glory.
I would dearly love to see dungeons that run the gamut of time requirements, from the terribly easy to the insane, and things to find in said dungeons that can be traded like game cards.
Hell, give me a card game in the marketplace to play for discounts with the merchants. You bet I'd collect the best set of artwork I could and obsess over my strategy.
28 posts
I'll prefix this post by saying I resubmitted to WoW to check out cataclysm after several years off, and since reaching near-end game content am severely dissapointed. (i assumed it would be so but had to check it out). However I'm glad I did as I think it offered me some insight into my own personality and desires in gaming.
I am so totally for this. One of the frustrating things I find with current dungeons or instances is that it's the same every time. The exploration is gone. Once you get descent even gear and people who have done it a couple of times it's a cruise control mode. Super frustrating. The core elements of dungeons are somewhat universal, however I am imagining a dungeon where the layout changes, packs of mobs change in their composition, patrolling mobs change type and pathways. I could also see bosses being created on a randomized matrix sort of feel.
WoW implemented this system and has since refined it which is the main reason I'm glad I played it for all of 2 weeks to reach 85. While I still hate the raiding systems which get overlayed into their game, The point system I see as a good implementation. I like the idea of variable length dungeons and variable rewards. I personally would like to see dungeons in the 30, 60, 90, and 180 minute range. After about 3-4 hours I'm completely tired of being in an instanced dungeon or focusing on not f***ing up. What I think would be a great implementation for both the casual and more hardcore would be a non-linear (more parabolic) point system with a multiplied factor for longer duration dungeons.
Think of it this way: a 30 minute dungeon with 2 bosses fully cleared would yield you 50 *points*, the first boss being 20 points, the second being 30. Up that to a 60 minute dungeon with 4 bosses, which would yield a total of 125 points, the first boss being 10, second being 20, third being 35, and last being 55. Follow this progression for longer dungeons. This makes the longer dungeons a better TOTAL point vs. time spent, but only if you have enough time to do it, and if you end up failing in the longer harder dungeons at 30 minutes through, it wasn't an efficient use of your dungeon time because for the same 30 minutes you could have gotten 50 points instead of 30.
This would keep the desire to once in a while endulge in those longer (more rewarding) instances or dungeons, but also not mean that the casual player couldn't work up to that same level over time.
Feedback on this idea would be great!
jadyness wrote:
For once, I'd like to see randomly generated dungeons. Something where you didn't know exactly what you were getting into and tactics had to change depending on room and corridor placement.
If they can do it in single player games, I have no idea why they don't implement it in MMOs.
If they can do it in single player games, I have no idea why they don't implement it in MMOs.
I am so totally for this. One of the frustrating things I find with current dungeons or instances is that it's the same every time. The exploration is gone. Once you get descent even gear and people who have done it a couple of times it's a cruise control mode. Super frustrating. The core elements of dungeons are somewhat universal, however I am imagining a dungeon where the layout changes, packs of mobs change in their composition, patrolling mobs change type and pathways. I could also see bosses being created on a randomized matrix sort of feel.
Gii wrote:
I'd like to see a variety of lengths of dungeons available. One of the appeals to the casual player is that they can pop on for a short while and get something worthwhile done, while for the more serious gamer a long immersive dungeon provides a nice challenge. Having variety caters to all player types.
If you spend more than an hour in a dungeon, you should get some form of appropriate reward by/at the end. Points is an excellent idea, or tradable trophy items like in GW1. It pretty much guarantess that even if you did not get the big ticket item for the dungeon you at least get something meaningful and of real value to you, and even if you do get the big ticket item, you might want to go regrind that dungeon again just because its fun and you can gain credit to some points based item you are after.
Failing that (or as well as), you should be guaranteed something nice. Sure, the big ticket items should not be 100%, but if you don't get one of those the consollation item should be worth the time. An uncommon craft material, or cash, or some other tradable/sellable item.
I have no problem running a dungeon serveral times to get the big win item, as long as I'm getting something else for my effort too. Otherwise I'm just playing against the random number generator, and have better uses of my time :P
Variation in spawns, both position and type of enemy, would certainly make dungeons more interesting. Good idea :)
If you spend more than an hour in a dungeon, you should get some form of appropriate reward by/at the end. Points is an excellent idea, or tradable trophy items like in GW1. It pretty much guarantess that even if you did not get the big ticket item for the dungeon you at least get something meaningful and of real value to you, and even if you do get the big ticket item, you might want to go regrind that dungeon again just because its fun and you can gain credit to some points based item you are after.
Failing that (or as well as), you should be guaranteed something nice. Sure, the big ticket items should not be 100%, but if you don't get one of those the consollation item should be worth the time. An uncommon craft material, or cash, or some other tradable/sellable item.
I have no problem running a dungeon serveral times to get the big win item, as long as I'm getting something else for my effort too. Otherwise I'm just playing against the random number generator, and have better uses of my time :P
Variation in spawns, both position and type of enemy, would certainly make dungeons more interesting. Good idea :)
WoW implemented this system and has since refined it which is the main reason I'm glad I played it for all of 2 weeks to reach 85. While I still hate the raiding systems which get overlayed into their game, The point system I see as a good implementation. I like the idea of variable length dungeons and variable rewards. I personally would like to see dungeons in the 30, 60, 90, and 180 minute range. After about 3-4 hours I'm completely tired of being in an instanced dungeon or focusing on not f***ing up. What I think would be a great implementation for both the casual and more hardcore would be a non-linear (more parabolic) point system with a multiplied factor for longer duration dungeons.
Think of it this way: a 30 minute dungeon with 2 bosses fully cleared would yield you 50 *points*, the first boss being 20 points, the second being 30. Up that to a 60 minute dungeon with 4 bosses, which would yield a total of 125 points, the first boss being 10, second being 20, third being 35, and last being 55. Follow this progression for longer dungeons. This makes the longer dungeons a better TOTAL point vs. time spent, but only if you have enough time to do it, and if you end up failing in the longer harder dungeons at 30 minutes through, it wasn't an efficient use of your dungeon time because for the same 30 minutes you could have gotten 50 points instead of 30.
This would keep the desire to once in a while endulge in those longer (more rewarding) instances or dungeons, but also not mean that the casual player couldn't work up to that same level over time.
Feedback on this idea would be great!
Let me ask you this:
Why bosses at all?
Every dungeon is this big ol' race to the end, where the badass breathes fire on you and hits you with the Sword of Paralyzation +5 while you're reeling around. Maybe his lieutenants are worth bagging (and bragging rights) for the few trinkets they got, but if you don't get the boss, it's a failed run.
So consider - why are you saying that your ideal dungeon layout has, oh, one, two, six of 'em? It's the same old, same old. Do it in an hour, do in three, maybe the corridors are static, maybe they're not, it's the same damned thing we've all done over and over.
Why not a dungeon where the goal is simply to get to the other side? No bosses at all, just traps and pits and places where you need five of you to get past the door the size of a house - two to melt the hinges, one to freeze the doorknocker so it doesn't ring in alarm and bring a wave of frenzied doorkeepers, one to wrestle it open and one to admire the ornamentation and take screenshots.
What about a dungeon where the idea is to just FIND something?
What about a dungeon where the idea is having to collect things before the timer runs out? And maybe those something's are alive and don't WANT to be collected.
What about a dungeon where the mobs HELP you? What about a dungeon where you can help the MOBS? Be a traitor, turn on your party if the "pay" is better. Out of the blue, a random text balloon hits your screen with an slinky offer and a nice fat "Accept Offer?" button....
The idea behind your scenario is pretty good, but it's based on "efficiency". How many points do you want to earn based on the time you have available to earn them. It's back to being a numbers game which I don't find appealing anymore. And I'm not sure, but you might find that somewhere deep down, you feel the same way if you're disgruntled with Warcraft which makes no bones anymore about everything boiling down to tenths of a percentage of advantage.
Your proposed scenario would have people running dungeon content not because it was fun and exciting and they wanted the challenge with some booty to be plundered along the way, but because it gave them the best number bang for their buck. They might actually hate the content, but they'd do it anyways because it was "efficient". Over and over again. Until they got the most points in the least amount of time.
My god, do I hate efficiency for the sake of it, in MMOs.
Why bosses at all?
Every dungeon is this big ol' race to the end, where the badass breathes fire on you and hits you with the Sword of Paralyzation +5 while you're reeling around. Maybe his lieutenants are worth bagging (and bragging rights) for the few trinkets they got, but if you don't get the boss, it's a failed run.
So consider - why are you saying that your ideal dungeon layout has, oh, one, two, six of 'em? It's the same old, same old. Do it in an hour, do in three, maybe the corridors are static, maybe they're not, it's the same damned thing we've all done over and over.
Why not a dungeon where the goal is simply to get to the other side? No bosses at all, just traps and pits and places where you need five of you to get past the door the size of a house - two to melt the hinges, one to freeze the doorknocker so it doesn't ring in alarm and bring a wave of frenzied doorkeepers, one to wrestle it open and one to admire the ornamentation and take screenshots.
What about a dungeon where the idea is to just FIND something?
What about a dungeon where the idea is having to collect things before the timer runs out? And maybe those something's are alive and don't WANT to be collected.
What about a dungeon where the mobs HELP you? What about a dungeon where you can help the MOBS? Be a traitor, turn on your party if the "pay" is better. Out of the blue, a random text balloon hits your screen with an slinky offer and a nice fat "Accept Offer?" button....
The idea behind your scenario is pretty good, but it's based on "efficiency". How many points do you want to earn based on the time you have available to earn them. It's back to being a numbers game which I don't find appealing anymore. And I'm not sure, but you might find that somewhere deep down, you feel the same way if you're disgruntled with Warcraft which makes no bones anymore about everything boiling down to tenths of a percentage of advantage.
Your proposed scenario would have people running dungeon content not because it was fun and exciting and they wanted the challenge with some booty to be plundered along the way, but because it gave them the best number bang for their buck. They might actually hate the content, but they'd do it anyways because it was "efficient". Over and over again. Until they got the most points in the least amount of time.
My god, do I hate efficiency for the sake of it, in MMOs.
4 posts
I think that if a player wants to do dungeons, he or she will make the time to do dungeons. I think we're at a time in MMOs where casual players need to step it up if they want the nicer things in games, and can't complain if they don't want to take the time to achieve those goals. Of course we all get those people who want everything handed to them.
That being said, I don't want to participate in short dungeons. I want a dungeon that is content-rich and somewhat lengthy. 45 minutes to 1 hour sounds good. Maybe even 1 hour 30 minutes in a couple of high-end level 80 dungeons.
Dungeons aren't designed for casual players, after all. The only thing dungeons provide is prestige armor. It's only for looks. It has been said you can get armor of equivalent stats, it just doesn't look as cool.
Remember the crest system. :)
Also, I'd like to add.. They should provide mini dungeons that last 15-30 minutes but still pretty difficult. And as a result you can get a mini pet of a creature in that dungeon. Sounds pretty cool to me. Maybe other various rewards could be included.
Edited, Jan 8th 2011 9:44am by IngeKy
That being said, I don't want to participate in short dungeons. I want a dungeon that is content-rich and somewhat lengthy. 45 minutes to 1 hour sounds good. Maybe even 1 hour 30 minutes in a couple of high-end level 80 dungeons.
Dungeons aren't designed for casual players, after all. The only thing dungeons provide is prestige armor. It's only for looks. It has been said you can get armor of equivalent stats, it just doesn't look as cool.
Remember the crest system. :)
Also, I'd like to add.. They should provide mini dungeons that last 15-30 minutes but still pretty difficult. And as a result you can get a mini pet of a creature in that dungeon. Sounds pretty cool to me. Maybe other various rewards could be included.
Edited, Jan 8th 2011 9:44am by IngeKy
28 posts
jadyness wrote:
Let me ask you this:
Why bosses at all?
Every dungeon is this big ol' race to the end, where the badass breathes fire on you and hits you with the Sword of Paralyzation +5 while you're reeling around. Maybe his lieutenants are worth bagging (and bragging rights) for the few trinkets they got, but if you don't get the boss, it's a failed run.
So consider - why are you saying that your ideal dungeon layout has, oh, one, two, six of 'em? It's the same old, same old. Do it in an hour, do in three, maybe the corridors are static, maybe they're not, it's the same damned thing we've all done over and over.
Why not a dungeon where the goal is simply to get to the other side? No bosses at all, just traps and pits and places where you need five of you to get past the door the size of a house - two to melt the hinges, one to freeze the doorknocker so it doesn't ring in alarm and bring a wave of frenzied doorkeepers, one to wrestle it open and one to admire the ornamentation and take screenshots.
What about a dungeon where the idea is to just FIND something?
What about a dungeon where the idea is having to collect things before the timer runs out? And maybe those something's are alive and don't WANT to be collected.
What about a dungeon where the mobs HELP you? What about a dungeon where you can help the MOBS? Be a traitor, turn on your party if the "pay" is better. Out of the blue, a random text balloon hits your screen with an slinky offer and a nice fat "Accept Offer?" button....
The idea behind your scenario is pretty good, but it's based on "efficiency". How many points do you want to earn based on the time you have available to earn them. It's back to being a numbers game which I don't find appealing anymore. And I'm not sure, but you might find that somewhere deep down, you feel the same way if you're disgruntled with Warcraft which makes no bones anymore about everything boiling down to tenths of a percentage of advantage.
Your proposed scenario would have people running dungeon content not because it was fun and exciting and they wanted the challenge with some booty to be plundered along the way, but because it gave them the best number bang for their buck. They might actually hate the content, but they'd do it anyways because it was "efficient". Over and over again. Until they got the most points in the least amount of time.
My god, do I hate efficiency for the sake of it, in MMOs.
Why bosses at all?
Every dungeon is this big ol' race to the end, where the badass breathes fire on you and hits you with the Sword of Paralyzation +5 while you're reeling around. Maybe his lieutenants are worth bagging (and bragging rights) for the few trinkets they got, but if you don't get the boss, it's a failed run.
So consider - why are you saying that your ideal dungeon layout has, oh, one, two, six of 'em? It's the same old, same old. Do it in an hour, do in three, maybe the corridors are static, maybe they're not, it's the same damned thing we've all done over and over.
Why not a dungeon where the goal is simply to get to the other side? No bosses at all, just traps and pits and places where you need five of you to get past the door the size of a house - two to melt the hinges, one to freeze the doorknocker so it doesn't ring in alarm and bring a wave of frenzied doorkeepers, one to wrestle it open and one to admire the ornamentation and take screenshots.
What about a dungeon where the idea is to just FIND something?
What about a dungeon where the idea is having to collect things before the timer runs out? And maybe those something's are alive and don't WANT to be collected.
What about a dungeon where the mobs HELP you? What about a dungeon where you can help the MOBS? Be a traitor, turn on your party if the "pay" is better. Out of the blue, a random text balloon hits your screen with an slinky offer and a nice fat "Accept Offer?" button....
The idea behind your scenario is pretty good, but it's based on "efficiency". How many points do you want to earn based on the time you have available to earn them. It's back to being a numbers game which I don't find appealing anymore. And I'm not sure, but you might find that somewhere deep down, you feel the same way if you're disgruntled with Warcraft which makes no bones anymore about everything boiling down to tenths of a percentage of advantage.
Your proposed scenario would have people running dungeon content not because it was fun and exciting and they wanted the challenge with some booty to be plundered along the way, but because it gave them the best number bang for their buck. They might actually hate the content, but they'd do it anyways because it was "efficient". Over and over again. Until they got the most points in the least amount of time.
My god, do I hate efficiency for the sake of it, in MMOs.
jadyness,
i think these observations are totally legit. And to be honest sound pretty f-ing cool. I'm an engineer and I love efficiency both in the things I do and the time i spend to do them, so i'll first say that no matter what I do, be it an MMO or anything else, i'm probably going to look for the most efficient way to do it, unless it is something like drinking a beer. That said,
I agree with you the boss thing may be overdone and should be laid to rest, the numbers game generally always becomes a grind, and if nothing else should just not the majority of dungeons or whatever. I like the time-clock to the end, or to find something or someone, and all that stuff. I'm still going to look at a dungeon as to how to complete it efficiently (one could argue that not ******** up and wiping would be an efficient way to go about it).
I'm totally all for all of those ideas, I don't think i've spent enough time thinking about where the creativity can go with dungeons, but I want to play the game not make them, and I like the challenge of my idea, it's what I feel the intent of forums are. Hats off
Hey, we all get into the mindset of a dungeon crawl being the big, bad reward at the end. When you defeat the Head Monster, hell, often a portal opens up just behind his carcass so you can get out of there without having to wear out any more virtual shoe leather trudging back to the entrance. S'all about efficiency, you see. Get in, get out, do it as fast as possible and get world and realm first. Oooh.
(Yeah, I've got sour grapes that I'm never going to be world first in anything, except maybe sleeping in.)
What about a dungeon where you slay the bad guy and rescue the princess - only now she's pissed, she was in love with the monster and you're a horrible, horrible party for killing him. So now you have to keep her from escaping any chance she gets while you drag her unwilling, wailing body back to the entrance and the waiting arms of her father's soldiers. She IS the prize. What happens if she ends up killed by the mobs in the corridors? Can you loot her body? Does your game karma take a hit, making the merchants on the street sell things at higher price because "they've heard about you" on the offchance that THIS time she's wearing a really expensive necklace?
I could go on, but won't.
I just mostly wanted to point out that the staging idea you had is instantaneously going to be solved by calculator, as somebody figures out WHICH amount of time in will yield the most amount of points out. Within a half hour, everybody will be running that dungeon and that dungeon only until their eyes bleed and their fingers fall off. And those of us that DON'T for exactly that reason will 1) be intentionally gimping ourselves which 2) can lead to vague feelings of unworthiness and malaise with the whole game.
I don't really expect GW2 to do anything radically different with the Boss Mob mechanic. I just kind of wish they would anyways.
(Yeah, I've got sour grapes that I'm never going to be world first in anything, except maybe sleeping in.)
What about a dungeon where you slay the bad guy and rescue the princess - only now she's pissed, she was in love with the monster and you're a horrible, horrible party for killing him. So now you have to keep her from escaping any chance she gets while you drag her unwilling, wailing body back to the entrance and the waiting arms of her father's soldiers. She IS the prize. What happens if she ends up killed by the mobs in the corridors? Can you loot her body? Does your game karma take a hit, making the merchants on the street sell things at higher price because "they've heard about you" on the offchance that THIS time she's wearing a really expensive necklace?
I could go on, but won't.
I just mostly wanted to point out that the staging idea you had is instantaneously going to be solved by calculator, as somebody figures out WHICH amount of time in will yield the most amount of points out. Within a half hour, everybody will be running that dungeon and that dungeon only until their eyes bleed and their fingers fall off. And those of us that DON'T for exactly that reason will 1) be intentionally gimping ourselves which 2) can lead to vague feelings of unworthiness and malaise with the whole game.
I don't really expect GW2 to do anything radically different with the Boss Mob mechanic. I just kind of wish they would anyways.
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